RAMONESLAND: The Ramones – An Interview with the ‘First Family of Punk’ by Abby Weissman. 9/21/1988

    It's not uncommon for strangers to come up to the Ramones to thank them for existing and to pay their respects. Sometimes it's just kids in the street who shout out "Hey man, you guys are the best!," but other times it's guys like Lars from Metallica who once confided to Joey, "You're the reason I formed Metallica.” 

    These not-alwavs-anonymous homagers are not merely crazed fans. They are music lovers privy to one important fact: Without the Ramones there might not have been punk rock, and without punk rock who knows where we'd be today — we might all still be listening to the Doobie Brothers.

    For the past 14 years, the Ramones have proudly carried their freak flag high for a rock movement they almost singlehandedly created in 1974 — punk. Out of all the bands that began at CBGBs in those thriving early years, the Ramones are not only the most influential, they have outlasted almost every one of them (with the only major exception being the arty mainstream Talking Heads). And the Ramones are still getting bigger.
    But despite their continuing success and living legend status, being a Ramone hasn't always been an endless vacation. There has been grueling hard work, drug and alcohol problems, three drummers (a sober Marky rejoined after Ritchie abruptly quit last Fall), internal fighting and other equally troublesome problems.
    And there have been good times too – plenty of them. Like when they first began to make it on the Bowery in '74, their now-legendary trip to England in '76, their 10 great albums, the fun tours, and of course, the gigs. The Ramones have always been an essential live band, and it's in concert where they really shine.
    Presently in the midst of area appearances and a promotional blitz for their new “Best Of” collection, Ramones Mania, Joey and Marky Ramone recently took some time out from their busy schedule to discuss the current state of Ramonia. Over a few slices of pizza at one of their favorite hangouts (a bar & grill on the Lower East side), New York's premier rock 'n' rollers candidly spoke of the triumphs and tribulations of being a Ramone, as well as their illustrious Ramones past, present, and future plans. Following are excerpts from our conversation.

Abby Weissman: First of all, let's talk about "Ramones Mania," your new compilation album. Do you consider purely a greatest hits collection for your fans?
Joey: In a way, except most of the mixes have never been released. A lot of them are European or English mixes, like 'Indian Giver,' which has never been released in America. But if it were just a hits package. it wouldn't have the songs it does have on it like “Wart Hog.” It's really for the collector, or the new fan, or anybody. It's great.
Marky: Plus it's good for the younger kids too, because a lot of them aren't really familiar with the older albums. So if they get a hits package (like Ramones Mania) they can hear the older stuff, and if they like it they can go buy the others. And we have a nice bio on it.

AW: Who selected the songs?
J: We did, but actually this guy Kevin (Laffey) from Warner Brothers is real responsible for this album's conception and seeing it through. Warner Brothers came up with a list of the songs they wanted on it, and we came up with a list of the songs we wanted on it, and it was very close by about five songs. It was very difficult for us to select the songs, but we wanted to make sure it wasn't put together by the record company so it wouldn't contain 30 ballads. (Laughs).

AW: Did you remaster the material yourselves for the CD version of the album and is there any difference in the sound?
    M: All the stuff on the new CD was digitally remastered by Ed Stasium and it sounds great.
    J: And there are some songs that sound better now than they did originally, like
"Chinese Rocks,' because I didn't like that guitar shit Phil slipped in while we were away, or our backs were turned. We didn't want to put the Spector version on (Ramones Mania) because we weren't crazy about it. Instead we wanted to put on a demo version or maybe a live version, or something like that. But actually on Ramones Mania it (the Spector version) sounds better and rawer than before.

AW: Speaking of CDs, when are your earlier records coming out on CD?
    J: I asked Howie Klein (at the record company) about that recently and he said they were going to do the first and second album together on one CD, which is cool, sort of like those T-Rex albums, and then maybe Rocket to Russia and Road to Ruin together. Eventually, everything will be out on CD.

AW: Your sound on those early albums was originally compared to the Stooges. How would you characterize the Ramones influences these days?
J: We all love the Stooges, but we love a lot of things. We're all big rock 'n' roll fans and collectors, and we all share definite similarity of tastes, but then again everyone has their preferences. I guess lately I've been more into metal, ike Motorhead and AC/DC. I've loved them from the beginning, but I'm writing maybe more in that style to some degree as opposed to where I was more influenced by Doo Wop at one time, like when I wrote 'Oh Oh I Love Her So' — or a more English kind of thing, like when I wrote "I Don't Want You,” which was more of a Kinks kind of thing.
    As far as compositional writing, it's absorption of everything, and the output is us. It's not just music, it's living, it's fucking life. It's things that piss us off, it's things that amuse us, relationships, it's all kinds of stuff that goes into the makeup of this band.
    But today I might be into one thing, and tomorrow I might be more into something else, and it doesn't mean I don't like the other thing. It's just that some days you don't want tuna fish-you want chicken salad. But some bands will have tuna fish every day of their lives. A lot of bands have one or two influences, and that's exactly how they sound. You can't say we sound like this or that. I mean we're a unique bunch.

AW: Mark, I know you just rejoined the band last fall, but why did you leave the Ramones in the first place?
    M: I had a drinking problem, a bad drinking problem. I got to a point where it was taking over, where it was controlling me. I had to have a drink. I mean, it's fun to drink, if you know how to control it. But once it starts grabbing on to you, you'd better stop, 'cause it's gonna kill you. So, we got to a decision where they didn't want me around because I was drinking too much, and I don't blame them. So that was it. I had to get my life together and it took two years after being out of the band.
    I did go away to a few places and sobered up and dried out, and now, since 1983 till '88, it's almost been four years since I've been straight — nothing, not even pot.
In fact Dee Dee's doing great too, better than ever. He's totally clean, too. He looks good, he's growing his hair long again and everything.
    Joey: Mark's a serious role model for all of us. He's changed my ways because I like to drink myself. But now when I'm on tour, I don't drink or do anything. I stay straight and want to do my best. I mean, who wants to pay 15 bucks to see a bunch of fucked
up people up there stumble around the stage? Hey, when you go to see a show you wanna be blown away — like when I saw Iggy (Pop) at the Ritz. He's in rare form now, he was incredible that night. I always admired Iggy for a lot of years, but a lot of his shows I saw it wasn't even him, it was a parody — a bad Iggy/Stooges cover band.
But now he's got a good band, and they were good and raw and everything, It was almost the Stooges, but it wasn't this uncontrolled chaos — which can be good and bad. I mean it can be good but it's short lived. If Iggy kept the way he was, he would've been dead long ago.

AW: Like Iggy, you guys have a huge loyal cult following. On the whole, are you happy with the success the Ramones have had, or do you ever feel you'd rather be more mainstream - you know, the big, big bucks?
    J: We're still growing, we're getting bigger and bigger all the time. I'm happy with our achievements. We make people happy, you know? We're not going to go the way of Cheap Trick, that's for sure.
We're too concerned about our integrity. You can't sell yourself short, and sell your fans out. How can you live with yourself? I mean, most of these people who really make it can only live with themselves because all they really care about is the bucks. I'm more concerned about credibility, my integrity, my self respect. I like walking down the street and having kids saying to me “you guys are the best.” It's nice to be respected.

AW: Joey, last year Dee Dee made that rap record. Have you ever thought about making a solo album?
    J: Well yeah, at some point I definitely have plans and I have some stuff in the can.
But right now I've never been happier being with the Ramones. I'm really enjoying myself and we're really getting along great now. The Ramones are my priority and this is what I enjoy. But yeah, at some point I definitely want to do that.

AW: Would the music on your solo album be different than the standard Ramones' sound?
    J: Well it would be very diverse. Some of it would be very much like the Ramones because of course I've written a lot of songs for the Ramones. But some of it would be like up stuff that maybe wouldn't fit the Ramones. Some of the songs I've presented to the band, but they said “if you change this we'll do it.” Fuck that, man. I like a lot of different kinds of things, you know, and sometimes you don't want to have to  compromise and just do it without having to get into fights. So yeah, I'm gonna be doing some things.

AW: Joey, you said before that you guys were getting along great now, does that mean there was a time when you weren't getting along? What were the problems?
    J: Well, being together 14 years, and being a live touring band, we work just about all year round. So somewhere we're always on the road in close quarters and there's sometimes problems, friction, inner turmoil, and there's gonna be episodes, you know what I mean?
    Well it was really between me and John, and at one point it was between Marky and Dee Dee. I think there might have been a period for about three years that I didn't talk to John. It was some bullshit thing that today you could see as sort of trivial, but at the time I guess it definitely wasn't trivial.
    But, we all really made a conscious effort to really work it out, and we just worked it out to where it doesn't exist. It didn't take overnight; it took a while before each person regained the trust of the other person and let it go. Whether it be a band or a government, the worst thing that can be, no matter what, is the lack of communication — because then everything breaks down.
    M: Yeah, everyone let their disagreements go, and made up. Now it's one for all, all for one.

AW: When you tour, do you still travel around in a van?
    J: When we play sort of local, we'll fly, and then we'll rent a van. We had a bus in those days because we hated each other's guts, so we needed more space for our sanity. Now we just enjoy each other's company so we have a great time. It's fun, we really enjoy each other. It's nice. I mean we're a real happy family now, seriously.

AW: And now for some questions on the old days. When the Ramones first played CBGBs, you were so much slicker and conceptually more together than most of the other bands there at the time. Still, were you surprised by the great initial press reaction you received?
    J: No, because all that's important to us. I mean basically, when we play it's spontaneous but we believe in being tight, in being our best. We have a professional kind of attitude in the sense that we care to be our best, and to be tight and not be sloppy.
    We're just very organized. I mean, John right from the start would always have a second guitar right there tuned and ready to go, so he wouldn't have to tune it for like half an I remember seeing Television at CBGBs years ago — and they’d come out and hit a chord and Tom Verlaine would stand there for like half an hour tuning, talking about the whales or something. I mean, who wants to hear that shit? How annoying.
    That's one thing we excluded right from the beginning, that pretentious, the cliches and the bullshit. We just sort of disassembled and reassembled it and cleaned it out. It's like having your toilet stuffed up. We cleaned it out. We got the Roto-Rooter device and cleaned out all the stuffiness. It's like a breath of fresh air. We put the essence back, the spirit, the raw guts and emotion, the fun — that's what rock n’ roll always was, is, and meant to be.

AW: How preconceived was the initial Ramones concept?
    J: Well, you know, it wasn't a pre-conceived idea. We met, we had a rehearsal, and we realized that we got something here. It was just a chemical imbalance. This neurosis. This psychosis.

AW: As far as the true roots of punk, do you agree with the version of the story that credits the Ramones with singlehandedly bringing punk rock to England in July, 1976?
    J: Yeah. We went over there (to London), on July 4th 1976, and sold out three nights at this place, The Roundhouse, which was about 9,000 people. And then we did this club Dingwalls, and that's where all the kids were hanging out, like the Clash, the Pistols and the Damned.
    After we left England, that's when the world changed, and that's when music changed. The best story I heard was from Chris Spedding. He told me that when the Sex Pistols went into the studio to do their first album, one of the guys had a copy of Rocket to Russia under his arm and they said "we wanna sound like this.”
    But the thing was, while they (the British punk bands) all sort of took our sound and our look as their basis, they interjected themselves to give their songs their own personality and whatever, which was very exciting. But I think more of the bands there just took our sound and weren't really so different in the creative sense compared to the way the American bands were here — like us, Blondie, and Television. Here everybody was different, and the bands were more definite. But then again, we invented rock 'n' roll here in America, you know? (Laughs).
    M: When I toured with the Clash (in Richard Hell & the Voidoids) I was hanging out with Joe Strummer in his hotel room for six weeks — it was a long tour. He had the first Ramones album and Rocket to Russia and some reggae, and that was all he listened to at the time. And this was 1977, and you could tell how influential the band was — and still is.

AW: In the beginning, how many gigs did the Ramones actually play before you were signed to Sire?
    J: We played a lot, as much as we could because basically it was al word of mouth. I remember when we auditioned for Hilly at CBGBs and he said, “No one's gonna like you guys but I'll have you back!” When we first played, the first two people who were there besides the bartender and his dog were Warhol types. We got the art crowd first, because they tend to pick up on things first. We wanted the kids, but it was CBGBs, in the heart of the slums on the Bowery. We tried to encourage other bands to come and play, because we liked CBGBs. We liked the atmosphere and the acoustics and it was a nice environment so we thought “let's try to create a scene here.” So we'd ask people to come down and play but a lot of people wouldn't because they said “no one's gonna come down to the Bowery,” and all that. Initially it was us, and Television, and Patti was a poet then and then it was her and Lenny Kaye. And then it was the Stillettos and then Blondie. Then people started coming down.
    I remember when we first ran into Danny Fields — that was exciting because we loved the Stooges, and the MCS. Danny discovered the cream of the crop--like the Stooges, MC5, Jim Morrison, Lou Reed, Johnathan Richman — the best, you know. And Danny really liked us. He brought Lisa Robinson down and she saw us and said we changed her life. (Laughs). And then we started getting written up in Rock Scene and various writers started coming down, and word of mouth grew.

AW: What are some other milestones?
    J: I remember that summer rock festival at CBGBs (in 1975). They had “The Best 40 Unsigned Bands” and we headlined. That was the thing that really did it because writers were there from all over the world, like NME, etc.
    Right after that the labels started coming down. But we wanted an album deal. We were offered single deals but we turned them down. And I remember Clive Davis (former CBS head) being there and saying “You guys are great but you'll never get it down on wax.”
    But it was Craig Leon who brought Seymour Stein (head of Sire) to the attention of us. And we auditioned for him, and he was knocked out. And at the time, we decided we would rather be with a smaller company than with a big one – we didn't want to get lost in the shuffle. But we like Seymour, because he understood us. He understood what we 
were doing, because we were doing something totally alien.

AW: Not anymore though.
    J: Well, there's still nobody really like us.
I'm sure evervone sounds like us now and tries to emulate us to some degree, but nobody comes close.
    M: They don't have it down like us.

AW: Don't you think your songwriting is a lot of it?
    J: It's the songwriting, it's the performance, it's the people, it's the power, it’s just our attitudes, it’s just ourselves. 
 

THE PSYCHEDELIC FURS / THE BLOW MONKEYS / The Pier / August 15, 1986 by Abby Weissman

The Psychedelic Furs have changed. Once the darlings of the dance-and-doom rock set in the early ‘80s, the Furs personified the boredom and depression that followed the explosive energy of the punk rock movement. Their message was that sex and drugs and rock n’ roll don’t make it — nothing makes it. Everything is stupid (the most often-used word on their interesting self-titled 1980 debut album). Their resigned jadedness was, oddly, a breath of fresh air after enduring scores of angry-young-man clones patterned after the Clash and the Sex Pistols.

But despite the Furs’ early promise, both they and the opening band, the Blow Monkeys, are from the B-list of British imports these days. The A-list requires some genuine, unique quality; the painful honesty of the Smiths, the noise/reverb-laden experimentation of the Jesus & Mary Chain, or the plain old energy and star quality of the Cult. The B-list is comprised of often entirely competent performers who try for an image and more-or-less do it, but it’s not quite real: like a made-for-TV docudrama vs. actual news footage. But in today’s large and frantically consumer-oriented pop marketplace, even second stringers can prosper.

On August 15th, the seventeenth anniversary of  Woodstock, the Pier show provided a glimpse into the state-of-the-art of rock n’ roll, 1986 style — cool and calculated, and professional in ways not even imagined by the kids at Yasgur’s Farm.

Some things never change: the bleachers are still rickety, the Port-O-San bathrooms are still disgusting, and people still came to party. But unlike Woodstock, this Friday night outdoor party had no purpose: just something to do that’s less boring than the other available options. (The Psychedelic Furs appropriately enough, are mentioned as background music in Bret Easton Ellis’ MTV generation novel, Less Than Zero.) Like a joy ride, neatly packaged in carefully timed sets with professional sound and lights, with neither a passion for the music, or the Furs’ old, quirky, sardonic presence to make it special.

The opening band, the Blow Monkeys are currently riding high on the success of their single “Digging Your Scene,” and their debut RCA album, Animal Magic. They’re not as good as they seem to think they are.

Musically, the Blow Moneys (the name is British slang for saxophone, the band’s obviously favorite instrument) are recent graduates of the English School of Blue-Eyed Soul, alma mater to WHAM! and Culture Club. Whether their preference for R&B comes from a genuine passion for the music, or a passion for the bucks they could make as a crossover act remains to be seen. The smart money is on the latter.

The Blow Monkeys recently stated in an interview that they want to make disposable pop hits, and they do. Their music brings on a constant feeling of deja vu: the Blow Moneys owe a lot to Sly & the Family Stone. Ditto Labelle (“Wicked Ways”), Frankie Valle (“Digging Your Scene”) and Curtis Mayfield, whose funky classic “Superfly” was a particularly silly cover choice for this band. The Blow Moneys are full of teen idol pretentiousness, with guitarist/lead singer Dr. Robert decked out like a mod Rudy Valle in 1920s white suit and straw hat, displaying not a hint of the gritty, heavy, street smarts that a white band attempting the song requires.

But then, the makers of teeny bopper hits are often great successes, and the Blow Moneys will probably laugh all the way to the proverbial bank.

The Furs opened in full frontal attack with  “Heartbeat” from 1984’s Mirror Moves. The smoke machine smoked enthusiastically, and the lights flashed, the combined effect practically screaming THIS IS A ROCK CONCERT! The hyper-active star formulation lighting, in contrast to the Furs’ former Jefferson AIrplane-style psychedelic show, seemed to be rented from Motley Crue’s set designer; the band’s flashy leather rock star clothes from Rod Stewart; frontman Richard Butler’s moves from Billy Idol. The Furs also seem to have picked up a trick from Depeche Mode: produce moody, sensitive albums and give glitzy, make-the-girls-scream performances.

The band worked hard to give a high energy show, usually a good thing, but the Furs’ most interesting quality used to be their lethargy. They came on with the world weariness of jaded veterans, already beat, sounding like men who already shot their wad long ago in cheap thrills; alienated from self, god, country, and mournfully hip. These days they’re trying to live up to a more Top 40 image that that doesn’t fit them; the result of watching too many concert videos, perhaps, or the unfortunate consequences of a piece of blind luck. — “Pretty in Pink.”

The unprecedented success of the John (The Breakfast Club) Hughes film of the same name, and the new, updated version of the song was, after two album-less years, was like the average Joe hitting the Lotto jackpot, and may have convinced the Furs to shoot for Commercial Hit country. It’s an ironic development considering “Pink” comes from their early, bored, sarcastic period of five years ago — a time when they seemed too cool to ever be influenced by such an American Dream shot in the arm.

The Psychedelic Furs’ set consisted of a cross-section of their career, placing emphasis on their more recent MOR hits like “Heaven” from Mirror Moves and “Love My Way” from 1982’s Forever Now, as well as some updated versions of their old droning Siouxie and the Banshees-esque classics like “Sister Europe” and “India.” Butler does have a riveting stage presence, androgynous and theatrical. He gracefully mimed tightrope walking during “High Wire Days,” and goose-stepped across the stage on “President Gas,” one of the show’s more effective numbers.

On a few ballads like “Sleep Comes Down” and “Alice’s House” Butler dropped the slick cynicism of of most of his performance and even managed to be touching.But the Furs don’t really have much to say anymore. They are voyeurs to other loneliness and self destruction, watching the crazies as we all do en route from subway station to home. The Furs have become a cover band of they own material, the life in it long gone.

Their encore included their Sweet Jane-ish classic, “Pretty in Pink.” The fans loved it. A splendid time was had by all.

Both the Psychedelic Furs and the Blow Monkeys prove that music that’s all surface gloss will always be with us. Like “lite” beer and classic novels on 10-minute cassettes, we are growing more shallow and gimmicky. But real rock n’ roll will always be about rebellion and passion — unsafe at any speed.